John (00:02-00:38)
Please be aware that the content of this podcast may be unsettling for some listeners. This episode contains discussion about the Christchurch mosque attacks of March 15th 2019. If this story brings anything up for you, please talk to someone you trust. You can also free call 1737 to connect with a trained counsellor day or night.
(musical interlude)
Youth leader (00:38-00:46)
What's up boys? How's everyone doing today?
I'm good, bro. I'm good. Alhamdulillah (praise be to God)
You got up on the right side of the bed?
John (00:46-00:57)
I was a bit tired, actually, when I woke up. Like My eyes were hurting, but I got a text from this guy, to open that and get myself up.
I messaged this guy at 4am, I'm not gonna lie.
Yeah. I don't know what he was talking about that time.
(laughter)
John (00:57-01:03)
Freaking out about the podcast.
So what am I gonna say? What am I gonna say?
What about you, Ashraf?
John (01:03-01:16)
Yeah, good. Just recovering from surgery.
How'd that go?
It was successful, but just gotta get my mobility back, and then I should be 100%.
Do we wanna do a little bit of an introduction going around?
John (01:16-01:39)
My name is Bariz. Originally, actually, my name is my passport name is Tayeb. But when I came to Christchurch, I chose to call myself Bariz because of the meaning that it carries. I felt like when I came to, Christchurch, it was a different version of me than who I was in Auckland. So originally from Afghanistan, I'm 26.
John (01:39-01:51)
We came here in 2001, one month before September eleven happened. Currently, I'm studying engineering, civil and humanitarian. I just finished. So really stoked about that.
John (01:51-02:04)
Yeah. That's a little bit about me.
My name's Zabi. When I moved to New Zealand, no one could really pronounce my name. So my primary teacher just called me Zabi, which is yeah. Moved here in 2007.
John (02:04-02:29)
I'm originally from Afghanistan, like Bariz as well. I've lived here my whole life, been back a couple of times, but, yeah, I'm 17 years old, just finished high school, and looking to attend uni next year.
My name is Ashraf, originally from here. My father's from Singapore, and my mom, is from New Zealand. I'm 18, and I just finished my first year of university, and I'm studying philosophy.
John (02:31-02:43)
Yeah. My name is Yaquub. I'm 18 years old. I'm from Somalia originally, but I was actually born and raised here in Christchurch. I'm heading into my second year of university next year inshallah (if god wills), yeah, it's about it.
John (02:43-03:04)
Just what you said now, like, "originally from here", let's get into this topic real quick.
It's actually a good topic.
Yeah. Because I struggle with this quite a bit. Right? Always having to introduce yourself and be like, "oh, I'm from this place" because you know the person that's looking at you, if they're, like, let's say European, their next question is gonna be "but where are you really from?"
John (03:04-03:09)
Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.
So you'd say it to them before they actually even ask you.
Before they make any guesses.
John (03:09-03:21)
Yeah. So what do you guys think about this? Like, how do you feel about it? Does it phase you, or do you just not care?
I mean, it's whatever to me but if someone asks, like I was born and raised here, but if someone asks me where I'm from, I'm forever gonna say Somalia.
John (03:21-03:33)
I'm not gonna say, you know, I'm a Kiwi or whatever. I don't know. Maybe that might be just because I don't look like your typical Kiwi or whatever. I'm aware that that question might be coming from people. So I just say I'm from Somalia.
John (03:33-03:40)
Gotcha. This idea of a "typical Kiwi" though, what's that in your mind?
It's not me.
It's not you?
No bro.
John (03:40-03:47)
I mean, like, I'm visibly, like, African. You know what I mean? I've got that accent.
Why can't that be Kiwi though?
I don't know, bro.
John (03:47-03:58)
It's just like that. But, I don't know, bro. I think people are just, people are just...yeah. It's a strange question, bro. I feel like it's got, like, a deep reasoning behind it.
John (03:58-04:10)
It's like sometimes you can just look at people, like, when I walked in and the brother was sitting down, just by looking at him, I just knew he was Afghan. And I'd never seen him before. I'd never met him. I just knew he was Afghan.
Gotcha.
John (04:10-04:36)
When I introduce myself as a Muslim, usually I get doubts or, kind of scepticism. I have to explain that my father's from Singapore. My mother's from here, and that's why I look like this. People don't realise that I'm Muslim because I appear European. But when it comes to culture, I am very much part of the Kiwi culture because that's the only culture I really know because I've only been back to Singapore once, and I've just grown up here. So yeah.
John (04:36-04:49)
That's interesting see, because he's also grown up here, but he's clearly saying that I don't feel like.
nah but like, isn't like part of your family Kiwi though?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I feel like that's where it come from.
I'm trying to break that down.
John (04:49-05:08)
Like, that's where it come from, aye. But at the same time, I still acknowledge, that I was born and raised here. That in a way, yeah, I'm a Kiwi, and I like this country and its culture and all that. But when it comes to introducing myself, I feel like I sit more closely to my Somali side because that's all I've ever known growing up.
John (05:08-05:15)
Do you think there will come a time potentially where you can be like, "you know what? I'm a Kiwi".
Potentially. Yeah. Potentially.
John (05:15-05:19)
Nah.
Potentially.
I don't reckon I would ever say that, aye.
No? Still? still??
Nah.
John (05:20-05:28)
I hope that changes, though. That's the goal. Right? for you to live here and raise your children here even and be like, you know what? Yeah.
John (05:28-05:35)
My motherland is Afghanistan, but I am a Kiwi. You know what I mean? But I get what you mean. I'm the same.
John (05:35-05:44)
I don't feel like I'm from New Zealand at the moment.
Yeah.
I don't think until you bring a generation through here, you'll feel like this is your home. Like, this is where you're from. You're a Kiwi.
John (05:44-05:58)
And I feel that now, now that my son's actually born in Christchurch, I wanna raise him and my wife and I wanna raise him thinking New Zealand's home or Aotearoa's home. You know?
Because he was born here, do you just feel like a part of you belongs here now? Do you know what I mean?
oh a hundred Percent.
John (05:58-06:03)
Yeah. Yeah. My wife and I talk about it often, like, especially Christchurch. We'll forever be tied to Christchurch. Yeah.
John (06:03-06:13)
I think we need to start thinking of Aotearoa as our place for the sake of our future generations.
Yeah.
Yeah. Because back home, things don't look too bright aye.
John (06:13-06:27)
No they don't, brother. They don't. Do you guys have any idea of what's happening back home or where you initially identified?
I mean, Me, like, I've never been to Somalia or even, Africa. But, like, I know that there's a reason that my family came here.
John (06:27-06:43)
So, you know, I'm aware that over there if I grew up in Somalia, I probably wouldn't have been able to go to school and a lot of other things like that, you know. In a way, that's why I am kind of grateful, like, do acknowledge my Kiwi side.
It's looking different now, though.
John (06:43-06:56)
Yeah. It's looking yeah.
People like yourself is going back to Somalia.
Yeah. Like, the diaspora, it's been a big trend recently. A lot of people going back to Somalia, you know, investing, starting businesses and that.
John (06:56-07:04)
And yeah. It's something that I definitely wanna do at some point in my life.
So, I mean, Singapore is a is a very, stable country. You know?
John (07:04-07:15)
There's no problem, really. I guess the reason why my dad moved here is because of love. You know? That's, like, the only reason. And it's very similar, to New Zealand because it's so multicultural.
John (07:16-07:30)
Just like New Zealand with, you know, indigenous Māori, Europeans, and you see there's more people coming through too. There's so many cultures just like in Singapore.
Yeah. For me personally, it was, like, Afghanistan.
John (07:31-07:53)
I'm kinda just, like, in the loop of all the news and stuff that happens because of family. Like, when you go home, that's all they talk about, Afghan politics and what's happening back home. And I feel like sometimes they just get too stuck up on what's happening there and forget about what they could be doing here.
Man, that environment at home, like parents sitting in front of the TV, watching the news. You know what I mean?
John (07:53-08:01)
That typical thing. And, man, and it's ongoing too. You know? And you see the atrocities happening over, and you're like, wow. Far out.
John (08:01-08:07)
I feel so bad for my parents sometimes.
Yeah.
You know? They're, like, caught in that, and they can't live their life here.
Yeah. That's exactly.
John (08:07-08:21)
It sucks, man. It sucks.
(musical interlude)
I wanted to go into our childhood. Right? Like, even growing up here because I think we all grew up here.
John (08:21-08:49)
What's something that you would change?
Before the March things happened, I used to think school is everything. But I used to think school was everything. I thought my grades would define me, and I'd not go on, like, social gatherings and stuff just to, like, study and try to get good grades because I'd feel bad about myself if I didn't get as good grades as my mates did. And gowing up and after realizing that school won't define you and your grades won't define you and oing things outside of school.
John (08:50-09:07)
Life doesn't just depend on school. That made me a lot more.
Gotcha. So you would be more sociable or care more about the...
yeah, like, not care as much about, don't let my grades define my happiness. This whole year, I'll just be thinking about what am I gonna do at uni, and what what's gonna happen next year, what are the possibilities.
John (09:07-09:16)
And I didn't really get to enjoy my last year at school. I feel like I could've got so much more out of it. That's one thing I'd change.
Interesting. Okay.
John (09:16-09:31)
What about you, Yaquub?
I'd just applied myself more. I applied myself more in my academics, football as well. Just put myself out there. Like, I was, there was so many opportunities that I could've put myself forward for, but I just didn't.
John (09:31-09:46)
I don't know. Maybe I had the idea thatI wasn't that kind of person or something, but, I don't have that anymore, which is good. As I grow up it kinda ust went away. Like, when I was younger, I was a bit more quiet, but yeah. Nah.
John (09:46-09:55)
I would definitely apply myself more.
Cool. What about you, Ash?
It'd be think more presently. Stop worrying about the future.
John (09:56-10:08)
That's a good one.
Because when you're worrying about the future, you kinda don't live in the present. And now looking back, I wish I thought more of the present. I would have enjoyed my time back there a lot more.
Living in the moment!
John (10:08-10:17)
Yeah. Exactly.
How do we do that? How do we live in the moment, guys?
It's a bit hard to live without constantly just, I feel like we naturally just think about, you know, what we're gonna do.
John (10:17-10:38)
Long term goals.
What we're gonna do tomorrow, what we're gonna do the day off, what we're gonna do in a week's time, a month's time.
I feel like we set those long term goals, but to have the ability to knock them down, you gotta have all these little short term goals. I saw this little video of a US Navy SEAL, and he was up on the podium. And he was talking about, you should have a list of things you wanna do when you wake up.
John (10:38-10:55)
And the first thing on that list should be making your bed in the morning. Just making that bed in the morning gives you the confidence to knock another thing off that bucket list. And I feel like it's that. If we can start doing that and focus on little small goals, I feel like that will make us appreciate the present time a lot better.
John (10:55-11:16)
I tend to like, when I'm with my wife, family, turn off my phone and I'm fully in the moment. I look at my son and every single move that he makes, like, just looking at the minor details like you said.
Yeah.
And you just appreciate life, and you're grateful, you know, for that moment.
I feel like everyone has that sense of therapy in their life, whether it be family, friends, or sport.
John (11:16-11:24)
But I feel the exact same thing happened when I play football or whatever.
Yeah.
It's just time slows down. Yeah. Like, when you focus on, like, the littlest things
John (11:24-11:30)
You enjoy it so much more.
Yeah. You're, like, locked in, bro. When I'm playing football, I'm locked in.
John (11:30-11:43)
I'm never that...I wouldn't say I'm that focused on anything else to be honest with you.
It's such an escape, honestly.
It's a good feeling, man.
When I finished school, had a stressful day, whatever, you just go to the training ground. When you start training, everything's out the door.
John (11:44-12:01)
yeah.
You don't think about anything else apart from playing football. An hour and a half, two hours a piece, and then you go back to sanity.
I feel like physical exercise is a good form of therapy, bro. Not even therapy, just getting your getting your mind off things, like blowing off some steam, bro. Literally as well, breaking a sweat, that'll help you so much.
John (12:01-12:08)
Different people, tend to have different types of therapy. Some people use religion as a type of therapy.
Yeah. That's one as well for me.
That's a big one.
Yeah.
John (12:08-12:14)
Sometimes when you're stressed out, just go pray. It helps out. What do you think, Ash?
ah, for me, it's books aye.
Yeah.
John (12:14-12:25)
It serves as an escape from reality, like a portal into another world.
Exactly.
Yeah. Escapes. There's a lot of things that our religion has prescribed for us as well if you're going through stress, trials, and tribulations and stuff.
John (12:25-12:42)
And one of them is you can praise suhur (last part of night) the middle of, like, last third of the night, bro. That's when Allah descends to, like, the lowest heaven. You know? And then we've got so many things there for us. Basically, what it is, is if you're going through trials and tribulations, you pray and then you basically just let everything out, bro.
John (12:42-12:55)
Like, you can make dua (supplication). You can ask Allah for help with whatever you're going through. You know? And that's one thing that has helped me if I'm ever stressed with uni, just stressed with life in general. Just praying, bro.
John (12:55-13:07)
Blowing off steam, getting rid of stress, that's one of the best ways that you can possibly do it aye.
And then, like, prayer five times a day mandatory. It's like taking like, you wake up in the morning, 5 O'clock, whatever. Like, woke up today at 5 O'clock.
John (13:07-13:26)
It's the first thing you do. Go do wudu (ritual washing), and you go pray.
Yeah.
First thing you tick up, recently, I've been trying to start waking up earlier because it makes your days longer and, like, you can be way more productive. So, like, going, waking up, praying, and then going to the gym or something, and time just passes.
John (13:26-13:47)
And by the time people wake up, you've knocked so many things off your bucket list.
Yeah.
When I was younger, it was more just pressure from my parents to pray, like, read Quran and all of that. So, like, there was a phase when I grew up and I had the choice where I didn't really used to pray as much. But then, like, after the shooting and everything that happened, I tapped back into that that part of me, and I've been praying consistently ever since.
John (13:47-13:58)
And, like, the change is crazy, bro. I was actually watching a video the other day, and I was talking about how basically, like, the five daily prayers. Like, they're not long. They take, like, maximum ten minutes. Maybe, like, five minutes.
John (13:58-14:11)
It's basically just an escape from everything.
Mhmm.
That you got going on throughout your day. And it's actually like a good breath of fresh air, bro. It's a really good breath of fresh air.
And it's this idea of submitting to the one and only.
John (14:11-14:24)
Yeah.
Right? Like, your creator. If you think about it in life when we're going about our daily life, we have to deal with all these things, you know, all these other external things that we have that we are obliged to. And sometimes it pisses us off. Right?
John (14:24-14:31)
Yeah.
Like, we don't wanna deal with this.
And sometimes when you focus on religion, you put things into perspectives, like, those things won't matter.
Yeah.
John (14:31-14:37)
And it gives you structure as well, like, you know.
So faith is huge in your guys' life?
Yeah (x2).
A hundred percent.
Structure. Big thing.
John (14:37-14:42)
100%.
Especially living in New Zealand.
Definitely. It's hard to stay motivated, bro.
John (14:42-14:55)
Like, living in a country like New Zealand, like a non Muslim country, it's hard to find that motivation, but I need it. Personally, I need it.
It's hard work.
And you need to be self motivated as well because your parents can only motivate you so much. That's what it was like for me growing up.
John (14:55-15:08)
But then when my parents stopped motivating me in that, it was down to myself. And then, like, Alhamdulillah I started praying again and doing all of that stuff. And now that I've started, I can't stop. I can't picture my life without it.
What about you, Ash? Do you feel like faith is a big part in your life?
John (15:08-15:32)
I think it should be. It's not as much. I wish I had that motivation, that desire to be motivated, but that's something I think I have to find inside myself and not let other people try and motivate me, I guess.
(Musical interlude)
How'd you guys find it?
John (15:32-15:48)
Like, because we're around the same age range
Yeah.
Like, growing up, like, as a Muslim here. What obstacles did you guys kinda face? Because I know personally, there were a lot of things that kinda got in the way. Growing up, I wasn't really vocal about being a Muslim.
John (15:48-16:01)
I need to just keep it, like, pretty low key. When I was at school, I wouldn't pray and stuff. I wouldn't do any of this. And when it came to, like... the only the only reason people knew I was Muslim really was because, like, you know, like, at the canteen, like, "I don't eat this. I don't eat that".
(laughter)
John (16:01-16:15)
You know what I mean? Yeah. They were like, oh, okay. But then, I feel like, when I was, year 12, that's when the mosque stuff happened, like, the shooting and everything. And then after that, I became, like, a bit more vocal about it.
John (16:15-16:30)
I feel like maybe that might be something to do with, the reception that Muslims got after everything that happened. But yeah. No. I feel like I kinda used to suppress it and just keep it low key. I wouldn't practice publicly.
John (16:30-16:47)
I wouldn't talk about Islam the same way I do today to non Muslims. Like, I was one of the only Muslims in my school, so I feel like that could have been a thing. I don't want people to look at me differently or whatever. You know, I was Somalian as well. Like, I was one of the only black people in my school too.
John (16:49-16:59)
Yeah. So I just kept it low key. I didn't really tell anyone about it. What was it like for you guys?
Well, for me, I never really suppressed it.
John (16:59-17:17)
Yeah.
Because I guess, like, the schools I went to was very, very diverse.
Mhmm.
And I always I always, like to be different from the rest of the crowd, so I never really kept that hidden.
The schools I went to, like, my siblings and my older sisters, and they all went to those schools before me.
John (17:17-17:26)
So the teachers knew that I was related to that I was Muslim as well.
Mhmm.
So I didn't really have to say it. But when I'd introduce myself, it's not one of the things that I'd include in it.
yeah I understand.
John (17:26-17:38)
So, like, when I got closer with my friends and stuff, they all knew. I'd tell them that I'm Muslim and this is what I can't do and this is what I can do. And I still do that to this day.
Yeah.
And I feel like it still hasn't changed.
John (17:39-18:03)
When I introduce myself initially to someone, I won't tell them that I'm Muslim. But if they're the type of person who will get to know me more and be more, like, be a proper figure in my life, then they'll know that I'm Muslim.
Yeah. No. I feel like back then as well, like, when people would ask me to do certain things that I couldn't do because of my faith, I would give them other answers rather than just being straight up with them like, I'm Muslim like I would today.
John (18:03-18:21)
But, yeah, I feel like that's just another part of what I was saying before.
I feel like with some people, I'll just let them figure out that I'm a Muslim by the way I carry myself. But I won't straight up tell you that I'm a Muslim, but I'll be like, oh, I can't come because I have to pray or something.
John (18:21-18:42)
Yeah. Now I just see it, like, if people ask me questions, I just see it as an opportunity to inform them, you know, because you never know, bro. You could talk to someone, and then you could be the reason that they wanna learn more about Islam, that you could be the reason that they wanna become a Muslim. You know?
I feel like, since the mosque shootings have happened, people have shown more of an interest in our religion.
John (18:42-19:04)
And, and I see that by, like, my friends and people I play football with and my coaches. They ask me, oh, they ask they ask me questions about our religion and stuff. And I feel that they've been asked to come to the mosque and stuff.
I'm real grateful that they wanna learn about it because them wanting to learn about it, it makes me happy.
John (19:04-19:08)
Yeah. No. It's a responsibility of us as well. As Muslims, you know.
John (19:08-19:34)
If we go out and act like maniacs, bro, like, do this and that, then they're gonna associate that with Islam because there's not many Muslims here. So if you're acting in a certain way, they're gonna be like, oh, you know, maybe all Muslims are like this. If you carry yourself in a positive way, then they might think that in the opposite sense, like, you know, maybe these Muslims aren't that bad. You know what I mean?
A big thing about being Muslim, especially when I was younger at school and stuff, fasting
John (19:34-19:52)
The fasting month. I feel like that was a really good opportunity for me to inform people and let people know about...
Yeah. Definitely.
But at times, I feel like it was also a challenge. At primary, I still remember how we'd have to sit down and wait until we'd finish our lunch before we can get up and play.
John (19:52-20:04)
Aw Damn.
Yeah. We'd be fasting and we won't be able to get up until it was, like, fifteen minutes or something, mark. And we'll just be sitting down, just staring into thin air and then we can go get up and play.
John (20:04-20:09)
It's like, it's like the littlest things.
Yeah, nah. Speaking about fasting as well. We were talking about discipline before.
Yeah.
John (20:09-20:24)
Like, basically, what we do in during Ramadan is you step away from all of your desires. You're not allowed to eat. If you're married, you're not allowed to, you know, anything intimate with your wife. So basically, they're those who like food
Within a specific period of time.
Within yeah.
John (20:24-20:38)
While you're fasting. Yeah.
Sunrise to sunset.
So like, bro, that's like the ultimate discipline, you know, and it really, like, humbles you and makes you realize, like, you know...
Those are just...
What's important. Like, knowing what's important, like, Ramadan, like, that's a good time when it comes to that.
John (20:38-20:56)
It's it gives you a sense of gratitude as well. And we tend to, like, focus more in on our deen (way of life) especially during that month. Like, trying to get the most out of it, trying to go to the mosque as much as we can and try to go to every tarawih (prayer) that we can.
It's my favorite part of the year, to be honest.
Yeah.
John (20:56-21:02)
Nice.
When it comes around, man, I'm a different person. I'm just so happy.
Yeah.
And then what's sad is, like, afterwards, you can slowly, like
Yeah.
John (21:03-21:27)
Feel like going back down. But I wish I could keep up that and they will throughout the whole year, bro. That's, like, the ultimate goal. You know?
(Musical interlude)
So coming back, we wanted to talk about this idea of fun.
John (21:28-21:41)
And what is fun for you guys as young Muslim men living in Aotearoa, New Zealand?
Yeah Nah, bro. Growing up here, going to school and stuff, people invite you out, like, to a party or something. I'd usually just say, like, no.
John (21:41-21:49)
Like, you know, I'm a Muslim. I don't drink. I don't do this. And then they'll be like.... they'll usually follow that up with, oh, like, what do you do for fun? A question, along those lines.
John (21:49-22:06)
And then I'm kinda just like, what? Bro, I hate that question so much. But for me, bro, I feel like here, the idea of fun is so associated with getting drunk. I don't know why that is. I can stay home on a Saturday night when everyone is out and just play FIFA and have just as much fun, if not more, than everyone else.
John (22:06-22:13)
So you don't understand that kind of thing?
I dont understand that notion of you have to have alcohol to fun. You have to go to parties.
John (22:13-22:29)
You have to do this, this, that to be, like, cool, quote, unquote cool or whatever.
For me, I don't have to, like, force myself not to go to parties and that because I generally don't find them fun.
Yeah, Same.
Like as an introverted person, I'd rather stay home. That's what I get pleasure from, I guess. Yeah.
John (22:29-22:41)
I don't know. I, like, the main thing that I feel myself getting fun from and enjoying the most is just football. It's always been an escape because it's something that I enjoy the most.
John (22:41-22:57)
Yeah. Growing up here, there's a lot of, like, peer pressure. For example, I'll go to work on the weekends and some of my mates, they'll be probably, like, going out and stuff. And they'll ask you, like, oh, you should come and stuff. And they know that I don't drink. But the other people, the other mutual friends or whatever, they wouldn't know.
John (22:57-23:10)
There's a lot of things like football and work and stuff that keep me grounded. Even though I might fall victim to peer pressure of like, oh, yeah. I'll come out. There's still things in place like football that I use. Saturday morning, I'll have training.
John (23:10-23:17)
Sunday morning, I have training. So I don't have time to do it. Friday night, I work. Saturday morning, I have to go to training. So like, there's not enough time for me to do that.
John (23:17-23:32)
And we talked about structure earlier. I feel like having that structure in my life is really, like, it's really important to keep me in line, especially in New Zealand. Yeah. I feel like it comes back to being content with yourself.
Exactly.
John (23:32-23:52)
Yaquub speaks about, like, I'd much rather stay at home and play FIFA at night, and I feel the exact same way. Like, I have so much more fun if I just stay home, play some PlayStation with some friends online. Like, I'd genuinely have more fun that way.
Is there a thing about you avoiding social gatherings as well?
John (23:52-24:00)
Nah, nah. Because that's what I was actually about to say. Like, I would let's say, like, the Muslim boys or something, they'll, like, link it up at someone's house to play FIFA. I'd love to do that.
Yeah.
John (24:00-24:12)
Yeah.
It's not like I don't like going out or whatever. But as an alternative to going to parties, drinking all that stuff, I'd much rather stay home. You know?
There's limitations to that though because you need interaction, bro.
John (24:12-24:17)
Like We're social creatures. We need...
Yeah exactly . You need interaction. I mean, we crave it.
John (24:17-24:40)
You know? It's an innate thing. It's not something that we can really control. But at the same time, if you're constantly, like, wanting to be out there and wanting to be the centre of attention, then there might be some deep stuff behind that.
Because what it comes down to, like, when you're developing from teenage up onwards up until, like, 20-25, you're looking for your tribe or your clique.
John (24:40-24:52)
Yeah.
You know? And you're really desperately seeking it. So it's like, how can you remain conscious of the process that you're going through so you don't fall into a group that you're not meant to be.
John (24:52-24:59)
It's so important as well, bro. Like, you gotta have good friends, man.
But it comes down to knowing yourself before you know your friends, though.
Yeah. Definitely.
John (24:59-25:15)
Because if you don't know who you are and what you stand for, you can't really join a good group.
But when you're around a good group of friends, like, you know that you are, you feel good about yourself.
Yeah. Because it's really easy to slip off into the abyss. Right?
John (25:15-25:23)
So easy.
"Get lost in the sauce"
Yeah.
Yeah, That's the term used bro.
Yeah. So and I almost got lost in the sauce, to be honest with you.
John (25:23-25:44)
Like, for me, it was difficult because, growing up, I never felt like I fit in with anybody, but I was trying really hard. You know what I mean? Like, you would try to please people just so you can feel like you're a part of a group, and I couldn't find that. And then in, like, intermediate school, I found a group of Afghan guys, and I was like, yo this is my clique.
John (25:44-25:50)
You know what I mean? These guys finally get it, man.
They get it.
I don't have to pretend to be a certain way. They just get it.
John (25:51-26:03)
But the thing was when we got together, we were getting up to mischief because they were all gone through that same thing. Right? They were looking for, like, a group. So I guess we're trying to be cool as well.
John (26:03-26:28)
And, yeah, got up to a bunch of stupid stuff. I remember the first school I went to, and at that time, to me, it seemed like it was a majority white school. My brother got along with a lot of the people there because he was kinda whiter than I was, but I was a little bit different. And obviously, him being young he's all "don't come play with me". You know, "you're too young. Go do your own thing"
John (26:28-26:43)
So I was a bit of a loner, I would say. And I'd get into a lot of fights with people. But some days, it would be because stuff that I had seen on TV about Afghanistan, and then I would be carrying their baggage into school.
John (26:43-26:55)
Yeah.
And then a teacher will tell me something, and then I'll be like, "F you" or a young guy would say something, and I'd just wanna take my anger out on him. You know? And but it wasn't like he hadn't done anything. They would pick on me.
John (26:55-27:07)
Yeah.
And I'll be like, alright, sweet.
Did you experience any, like, racism while you're at school?
It is racism, but then again, it's stuff that most kids go through as well.
Yeah.
John (27:07-27:21)
You know what I mean? So at the time, I didn't think of it as racism. I was too young. And the young people that were acting that way towards me, they probably didn't think of it as racism either. So for me, I think it was always finding a sense of identity about who am I.
John (27:21-27:29)
You know? I'm in this country. Everybody looks different to me. My religion isn't practiced. I don't know much about anything.
John (27:29-27:42)
So, yeah, just finding out who I was was very important to me at a young age, and I couldn't do that.
Yeah.
Yeah. So after getting expelled from two high schools I went to Pakistan.
John (27:42-27:50)
I think I was, like, 15-ish. Even in Pakistan, I wouldn't even go to school. I'd wag there as well. But the principal was like, you know what?
John (27:50-28:04)
If you pay your fees, I'll write you a Letter. So I was like, alright, sweetie. So I just do whatever I want. And I got the certificate at the end of it, came back, and went to a college in Auckland.
John (28:04-28:18)
Was there literally for, like, a couple of months and then got kicked out of there as well. So. It just never worked out for me.
So, how did you go from that to, like, now graduating from engineering at UC.
John (28:18-28:27)
Yeah.
That's, like, a massive turnaround.
Yeah. The amazing thing is, like, I always knew that what I was doing wasn't right, like what we're talking about.
Yeah, Yeah.
John (28:27-28:41)
I always knew that this isn't true to who I am, like smoking, going out with friends, doing all that. I knew this wasn't me, you know, and I felt bad throughout it.
Yeah.
But I would still do things to just numb the pain because I didn't really know who I was.
John (28:41-28:52)
Mhmm.
And I wasn't taking the time and effort to find out who I am. So a huge turning point in my life was actually a certain situation that happened. I don't wanna talk about it.
Yeah.
John (28:52-29:06)
But that gave me perspective because I had to reflect on "who am I?" "Why am I doing these things?" "Why am I hanging around with these certain people?"
Yeah.
And I realized, like, a lot of the people that I hang around with, they didn't even align with my values.
John (29:06-29:22)
So I made that switch. Stopped drinking. Stopped smoking cigarettes all of a sudden, straight away. And I had been doing it for, like, six, seven years.
How do you recommend, like, people getting out of that?
Getting out of that cycle of not being happy with themselves?
John (29:22-29:35)
Yeah. And that kind of lifestyle, I guess.
Again, it all comes back down to finding out what really are your values, what means the most to you. You know? That's really difficult to do, and you need help with that.
John (29:35-29:58)
Like, you need to go and read books. You need to, speak with people who know you as well. You know? Like my brother, he would always remind me of something I had said when I was a kid. Conversating with people like that who can remind you, oh, this is what you were like when you were a young child, to just find out more about who you really are.
John (29:59-30:13)
I feel like, we need to express more that everyone has their own journeys.
Yeah, definitely.
Because I still remember last, was it this year? No. It was this year when we went to that inspired event and, like, hearing different successful people talk about, oh, they left high school not knowing what they were gonna do.
John (30:13-30:27)
They weren't that successful at high school. Seeing that everyone had a different journey, it lets you know that it's alright to not. Yeah, it's alright if something goes on that's not along the lines of, like, what seems perfect.
Yeah.
John (30:27-30:34)
You know what I mean?
No. But then again, there's, like, pressure because, obviously, we come from pretty traditional families. You know?
Yeah.
John (30:34-30:52)
Just finish high school, go to uni, get married. So if you don't follow that traditional path, there might be a bit of pressure on you. You know what I mean?
That's what I was gonna ask Bariz about because being Afghan, you know the pressure, like, getting married and going to uni and getting a degree. How did you cope with that pressure that you're getting from home?
John (30:54-31:06)
Home wasn't really pressuring me in a way because I was lost in the sauce. Right? So I was like, I was I was basically never at home. And when I came home, I just get changed, and boom, I was out the gate again. You know?
John (31:06-31:17)
So when I actually realized, hey. This isn't what I wanna do. I actually wanna, you know, go to university. I told my mom, I was like, look. I'm willing, I'm ready to get married.
John (31:17-31:23)
I don't wanna go out and do these other things. You know what I mean? So I was prepared for it. I didn't have that pressure.
(Musical interlude)
John (31:28-31:37)
You guys said that 15 March was in a way like a turning point.
Yeah, definitely.
I mean, you mentioned that Yaquub. What caused that? You're shaking your heads obviously.
John (31:37-31:48)
Nah, I just think it opened yeah. I was like, I think it just opened our eyes. That put everything into perspective. Like, tomorrow is not promised because, yeah, back home, you'll see people pass away and stuff.
John (31:48-31:59)
But, like, over here, we don't really see people pass away in such a way.
Yeah. Exactly.
I never imagined that someone that I knew would go to the mosque on Friday and not come back.
Yeah.
John (31:59-32:10)
You just don't think about it.
People, like, younger than us as well. Like, It was a bit mad aye. Like, people younger than us, like, going to the mosque on a Friday and then, you know...
It was a normal Friday.
John (32:10-32:19)
It was a crazy thing bro.
Just your typical Friday. Like, you'd have the same conversation with your parents in the morning. Like, they'd ask you, you're gonna come to Friday prayer. You'd be like, I go to school, whatever.
John (32:19-32:24)
Like, I still remember.
Like It's so vivid
So vivid bro.
Like, I had PE. Right?
John (32:24-32:39)
And we were in the gym. And then the dean pulled me out of class, and I was just thinking, like, what did I do? I was retracing everything I did that whole day, lunchtime, interval. And then he was he told me, like, my sister was in the office, and she seemed quite anxious. And then I was like, what?
John (32:39-32:54)
And then I saw her come out, and she was crying. And then she told me what had happened. And then at that point we didn't know where my mom was and my brother because they were they were at the mosque as well. So for ten minutes, like, I had no idea what was going on. And it didn't really sink until we went home, and it was all over the news and that and that horrible video.
John (32:54-33:06)
I ended up seeing that as well. And then that's where it all kind of, like you know, I was like, damn. Like, this is actually real. And then for that whole day, the next few hours, we were just getting, phone calls like this person's missing.
John (33:06-33:18)
Our whole school went into lockdown. And, like, you know how you have that feeling, like, what's happening and stuff? So, like, I just went on to Google and I searched up "Stuff", and it just said shooting at Mosque. It didn't have any numbers or anything.
John (33:18-33:30)
And I was just I was thinking "what could have happened?" And, our high school was in lockdown. I literally just walked out. I ran home because I live pretty close.
And, I was on Twitter as well and the most famous people were talking about it, bro.
John (33:30-33:44)
Like, YouTubers that I'd watch every day, they were tweeting about it. Like, oh, condolences to this. That's when I realized, like, damn, like, this is actually...Is actually serious, you know.
And from that day, from that moment, like, as soon as I got home, that six month period, six to eight month period
John (33:45-34:04)
It was just that, all that was in your mind was that mosque thing that happened. Because personally, with my uncle passing away, that whole like, everyone who came to see him from Auckland and stuff, they they're all at my house. So there was like a three month period in that year where I didn't even go to school. Being Afghan, having to cater to them with, Afghan hospitality, Bariz will know. I literally didn't go to school.
John (34:04-34:12)
I'd just be at home catering to guests from Auckland or whatever.
And you're the one who's lost someone. Right?
Yeah.
And you're catering to other people. That's culture.
John (34:12-34:21)
I feel like that was like a good escape as well.
It is yeah.
It takes your mind away from it. The thing is I remember it so vividly as well, and I hate thinking about it.
Yeah I know I have got all of it.
Yeah.
John (34:21-34:31)
Oh, man. Sorry for bringing it up.
This is, my first time properly thinking about every single day since that event.
Nah but, its like yeah. I don't, I haven't talked to anybody about this this topic, to be honest.
John (34:31-34:44)
So, like, I feel like it's good to deal with that.
I feel like it's important for us to talk about it, you know, how we felt after it, how we feel about it now.
Yeah.
Ashraf, do you wanna speak a little?
John (34:44-35:01)
Ah, Yeah. So my brother passed away. I was at school. Usually, I would go with him to Friday prayers, but that day, I had an English exam. And I remember being in Spanish and, googling it, and I told my teacher, this is happening. I need to call my parents and stuff.
John (35:01-35:29)
And right then, I expected the best case scenario, that there was just, like, I don't know, a few gunshots, misfired or whatever.
Yeah.
But then I heard, like, my mum, and I knew it was serious because she was there. And when she said that my brother, they couldn't find him and that he wasn't picking up, it didn't sink in. I thought he was hiding somewhere or he was helping out, and he just didn't pick up his phone.
John (35:30-35:45)
But then as, like, the day got, as a day, you know, like, after each hour, it got worse and worse. And then when we're at the hospital and finding out, man, that was absolute rock bottom for me. Because I felt a sense of guilt, like, not being there.
John (35:45-35:56)
Yeah, nah. I thought that as well. I thought that as well, like, younger people being there and then me being at school, like, they go to school as well, and they still find a way to go there, you know, and pray every Friday.
But it's meant to be. Right?
John (35:56-36:05)
You guys are here for a reason.
You know? Whatever you've experienced right now, you're here for a reason. I feel like that's what we need to take away from this.
John (36:05-36:11)
Like, Allah's allowed us to live. Right? You know? And we need to think about that.
John (36:11-36:21)
You know? And make the most of it.
It taught me the lesson that, you know, life is can just be gone in an instant.
It's not promised.
You know, you can leave life right now.
John (36:21-36:41)
Let that determine what you do, say, and think.
One of the, the younger kids who passed away, he was, like, three years old, and I was pretty close with him. So, like, hearing the news about him, bro, like, that that fully broke me. Like, with the older brothers who died, it was a bit more acceptable because they were guys who were at the mosque, like, all day every day, you know, and if they were gonna die anywhere, like, you know, they would have wanted to die in the mosque.
John (36:42-37:00)
You know? But with a young kid, like, three years old and some other guys as well, like, 15, 16 Yeah. You know, in their twenties as well, like, it's a bit hard to accept.
I feel like our community is, like, really small as well. So, like, even if you didn't directly talk to everyone, you had made some type of contact with them.
John (37:00-37:19)
I remember seeing the photos of some of the people who passed away as well. I knew almost all of them by face. You know, you just don't know them by name, but when you see them at the mosque, you shake their hands and stuff. And, yeah, I still remember the first day I went back, actually. So my sister's, husband's dad, he was, always at the mosque.
John (37:19-37:29)
Like, he always used to sit in this one spot. So I remember going back there for, like, the first time after it, And, like, I went into that room, and he wasn't in that spot. That's why I was kinda like, you know, like, damn. Like, this actually happened. You know?
John (37:29-37:39)
There was, there was one man that passed away. There was a Somali man. And he lived like, really close to me. He lived, like, a couple of blocks behind us. And, like, he'd always walk to the mosque.
John (37:39-37:43)
That's what I'm talking about, bro.
Yeah. He'd always walk to the mosque.
John (37:43-37:51)
And, like, no matter what, like We'd stop. We'd offer him rides and stuff, but he knew how much sawab (reward for good deeds) like he was gaining from that.
Every step, bro. Every step.
John (37:51-38:14)
So every day, you just see him walk into the mosque and, like, you know how he's an old man, so you'd obviously stop, like, offer him a ride and stuff, but he'd never take it. And just seeing him, I was, like, kinda kicked in. Like, not seeing him walk every time.
Those guys, it's a bit more easy to accept, you know, that they passed away, like, in that way because you definitely know, like, that's what they would have wanted. They lived a long life.
John (38:14-38:26)
You know? But for the younger guys, it's just a bit it was it was it was harder. It was pretty hard to get over.
Do you guys carry any sort of anger from that?
John (38:26-38:47)
I mean, there's not really much we can do, and I don't see how anger would, like, you know, have much of an effect on, like...Me personally, I'd say no. Maybe, like, in, like, the short aftermath of it. Yeah. But as of now, like, no. I don't think there's any reason to carry any anger.
John (38:47-39:02)
I'm not, yeah, I'm not gonna lie. A couple of months after it, when a lot of people were, like, I forgot the word. They were trying to express their sympathy, trying to show sympathy. That would really anger me. I barely used my phone during that period.
John (39:02-39:29)
I'd go on my phone and people I haven't talked to in a while, people that you generally kinda stay away from, message me, trying to show sympathy and stuff. And for that period of time six to eight months, I was just like when people would talk about it, I'd kinda just zone myself out and not really get involved. There would be topics that we'd have a debate in history and stuff, and it'd come up. And it and everyone would, you know, everyone's just looking at you, and you just, like, kinda zone yourself out. Like, why do we have to talk about this?
(musical interlude)
John (39:29-39:51)
Yeah. We tend to go to the mosque at least once a week. There's a lot of people that I know still today that haven't built up the courage to go back. I just think it was like something that you had to do because the mosque is like you just have to go. You have to put your feelings aside sometimes.
John (39:51-40:04)
Yeah. No. I feel like you can't...
Hide from It
...You might you might be able to, but I don't think it's good to stay away from the mosque for long periods. I feel like, to preserve your iman, which is basically your faith. Like, you have to go to the mosque, bro.
John (40:04-40:16)
Like, you have to go because it's so hard to stay motivated from your house. Like, there's you know, when you pray at home and then when you pray at the mosque, like, there's a massive difference..
Different feeling
in, like, your concentration.
Yeah. Like, when you're at home, you might just be going through the motions. You know?
John (40:16-40:30)
But, like, when you're at the mosque, praying in congregation with a lot of people, you know, you actually feel a connection, bro.
It's hard to stay in touch.
Yeah. I feel like it's definitely necessary. It might have taken some strength to go back, after everything happened, but I feel like it had to be done.
John (40:31-40:44)
Going back, it was it was a way of, accepting what happened, I feel. And only by accepting fate can you can you, like, truly grow from it.
Yeah.
Because I feel like every trial and tribulation strengthens our character.
John (40:44-40:49)
Like, what doesn't kill you makes you stronger.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
John (40:49-40:57)
Yeah, nah. I feel like I was just necessary to touch on that, aye. Definitely haven't really talked about it in a while.
I wouldn't say I carry anger.
John (40:58-41:09)
But after March 15, like, when I'm out and about, bro, I'm on the lookout.
yeah nah.
Your boy's on the lookout. I feel like a security guard outside,
John (41:09-41:15)
Outside a club. Looking at every single dude, like, who's a threat. Especially now that I have a son, like, man.
John (41:15-41:25)
Yeah bro, definitely. Like, with my mom as well.
I'm looking at everyone.
When she goes out, I wanna be with her or one of my other brothers to go with her bro because there's some weird people out there. Like, you never know.
John (41:25-41:48)
If you think about it now, do you guys feel like when you're out and about, everything's all good from the woman that you're in contact with who wear hijab per se that are more visible? Do you feel like they're at through it?
I don't know, bro. Because sometimes, right, like, when I pray at the mosque on a Friday or something I might go get food with some friends afterwards. Like, still wearing, like, my thawb (robes).
John (41:48-41:56)
Yeah. And I can notice people looking at me. So I'm just thinking, like, imagine a girl wearing a full hijab. You know? That must be tough.
John (41:56-42:10)
So definitely, yeah, my sisters and my mom and that. Like, I do think about that. If my mom's going to the mall or something, I definitely wanna go with her or get one of my brothers to go with her or something like that. Because, yeah, people definitely look, bro.
100%
John (42:10-42:31)
Like, some of those looks are dirty, man.
100%. Like, my wife, since she's come to New Zealand, even after March 15, right, like, five times, she's been, I haven't been there, She's been either sworn at or, somebody says something, you know, like, white guy, obviously. One time, some guy said something.
John (42:32-42:48)
My wife put the baby carriage to the side and tried to run out to the dude aye, and the dude freaked out, and he jumped back in the car and drove off. That's like her obviously, her instincts kicking in, but I can't imagine what the Muslim sisters are going through, man.
Like Yeah. No.
It's hard to speak on behalf of them.
John (42:48-43:06)
I feel really bad because after March 15, like, I was asked to do, interviews on TV, and I was speaking out of my own personal experience. Right? Like, I was like, oh, this is such a shock, so on and so forth. But, like, to a lot of the Muslim sisters out there, this wasn't really a shock. You know?
John (43:06-43:21)
Yeah.
I never said I'm speaking on behalf of anybody, but, that's one thing that will stick with me from March 15. Like, I...yeah.
(musical interlude)
I got a good question.
John (43:22-43:30)
Where do you where do you see yourself in five years' time?
Me? I wanna finish uni and inshallah (if god wills). After uni I wanna get a job. I wanna go to Melbourne.
John (43:30-43:37)
I wanna go to Australia. I got more family there, bro. There's so much more Somalis there. There's so much more Muslims there. And you're not gonna have to grow up....huh?
John (43:37-43:40)
You're throwing shade on New Zealand right now.
No. No. No. I'm not.
John (43:40-43:58)
I genuinely love this country, bro. New Zealand, New Zealanders, they're good people. But at the same time, like, one thing I would have liked is to grow up around more Somalis and more Muslims. You know, when I'm older and inshallah (if god wills), I have kids one day, I want them to be surrounded by people that are similar to them. You know what I mean?
John (43:58-44:16)
Like, a group of friends that they can go to school with, chill with after, go to the mosque with, all of that stuff. You know?
That's why I feel like, once you finish school and stuff and you decide to settle down and have a family, like, having it in an Islamic country where they're surrounded by people like that is good.
Yeah. But then again, it's really hard aye,
Yeah.
John (44:16-44:28)
But if you go, what's gonna happen to the other young Muslims here? They're looking for that role model and you leave. What's gonna happen to them?
I don't know, g.
Where's the loyalty, bro?
John (44:28-44:32)
Stay true to your roots.
It's hard, man. It's really hard.
Yeah.
John (44:32-44:51)
A lot of change needs to happen, bro. Yeah. Definitely a lot of change, aye? Like, if we want the next generation of Muslims to, you know, grow up in a good way
I think we should hear from hear from Ashraf before we move on.
I'd like to see myself in a new place that that really brings out my creativity.
John (44:53-45:17)
Yo.
You know, living with some relative comfort and relative happiness, I suppose. Yeah.
One thing I hope to see is like a Islamic school. But if there was a proper Muslim school where you can go from a primary school, years one to six, and then you have a intermediate and high school combined, years seven to 13, feel like that would be very good.
John (45:17-45:33)
Don't you think that would isolate, like, Muslims in one group?
Yeah. That's what I was thinking about too. If I was having, like, let's say, for example, my son or whatever, this day and age, bro, to be honest, I'd probably want him at a Muslim school. You know?
John (45:33-45:50)
Keep him away from, like, kids that be wiling out.
Nah, Like, I just wouldn't want him exposed to certain things that kids are getting exposed to nowadays.
Maybe it might be detrimental because, you know, if kids don't like school, then perhaps they may not find Islam that enjoyable to learn about.
Yeah true, that's a good point
John (45:50-46:14)
You need to instil a certain sense of passion for it, I guess, and curiosity.
I think that I think that personally motivates me is just knowing that tomorrow is not promised. So, I see a lot of people nowadays, like, 'oh, I know I'm not a good Muslim right now, but when I get a family, inshallah (if god wills), when I settle down, I'm gonna focus and tap in more into my deen (way of life)'. But who promised you that?
John (46:14-46:23)
No one's promised that you're gonna live to that day, so, I don't understand that. Like, that's a motivation for me. Tomorrow is not promised
(musical interlude)
John (46:23-46:46)
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John (46:46-46:51)
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